RE: [cobirds] Chatfield Horse Stables Off Limits

Hi All – reading Marie Hoerner's visit to the Pawnee National Grasslands reminded me of a visit there my wife and I made in 2017. We drove around this area stopping and wandering around looking at birds. Soon there were black pickup trucks and SUV's shadowing us, or trying to, but as we didn't know where we were going and made lots of odd turns these vehicles were not always close. Then a helicopter appeared over our heads but another odd turn and this, too, was lost. With all this activity we thought we'd better leave. So we headed out only to come to a military roadblock suddenly! Two Humvees with soldiers and machine guns. Fortunately they'd left a gap between their Humvees and we sped on through with a cheerful wave to the startled soldiers and scuttled out of Morgan County as fast as we could. We found out later that the area we were in was some sort of defunct missile site (I wondered what all those large concrete covers covered with weeds and grass were) and these were missile silos. So, what is it with the Pawnee National Grasslands? I thought, being a National Grassland, it was open to everyone. But people live inside its boundaries, fracking operations are everywhere and its not a pleasant place to visit. But we did see lots of Lark buntings. – Dave Hyde/nr. Storm Mountain, Larimer Cty.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Julia Auckland
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 5:08 PM
To: Colorado Birds
Subject: Re: [cobirds] Chatfield Horse Stables Off Limits

 

Since many people use eBird, it would help if we all put info like this in the comments for both the whole checklist and the rare bird (or write the details in the general checklist comments, and a rare bird comment that says "Restricted Access: see checklists comments for details").  Even if it is just cut and paste from here or someone else's checklist.   Also, for birds that draw a crowd, including detailed location info on checklists helps people find the bird quickly without milling around all over the place.  I don't know what other people do, but I mostly use eBird and only occasionally check this page or Facebook pages.  I spent a ton of time trying to figure out how to politely view the white-winged crossbill in Lakewood, but it was tough to figure out even after looking at eBird, Facebook, and on here.

 

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 3:17:35 PM UTC-7 samat...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

 

A couple thoughts in response to Cinnamon's inquiry. 

 

The stable leases the property from CPW so they have the right to monitor access. It is a business and birders are scattered around like horseflies when there is a bird around, possibly disruptive to the business.  Additionally, there is inherent liability with horses and horseback riding so the owner does not want to incur any additional issues or liability. 

 

This should be birders respecting no means no. It is simple really.

 

Diane Roberts

Highlands Ranch, CO 

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:10 PM Cinnamon Bergeron <cinnamon...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hopefully, all who read my previous email understood that I did not say anything rude to the park police.  I was extremely polite and obeyed all the "rules", once I was informed of them.

 

Just to clarify, earlier that day, I was birding by the beaver dam area.  I had heard that there was a Golden-crowned Sparrow by the "horse stable" from a fellow birder.  I had never seen a Golden-crowned, so I drove over to see it.  I knew nothing about any rules or issues.  I was extremely polite to the park policeman and I personally did not jeopardize any future birding opportunities. I never even went over to the stable area.

 

But since writing my previous email, I began thinking about why these rules are made just for birders.  If I was just a regular person enjoying Chatfield State Park, would I be allowed to go over by the stable area?  

 

The park policeman made it clear to me that Birders were not allowed to go over to the stable area. Really?  Only birders?  This seems unfair.

 

I just looked at the Chatfield Horse Stables website and found this on the homepage of their website:   Feel free to visit our horses, there is always someone near the fence waiting to be pet. 

 

This horse stable area is part of the park.  Since I am a paying customer, I think it is wrong for them to discriminate against me, just because I am a birder.  I find this very strange that "anyone" is allowed to walk over and around the horse stable area, except if you are a birder, then you are not allowed.  Who else finds this rule unfair and strange?

 

If everyone is forbidden to stay out of the stable area, then that would be a different story.  If the horse stable area was only for people who are taking trail rides or getting lessons, then they would post signs and have rules for everyone.  But they do not.  According to the website, they encourage anybody and everybody to "come on in" and even pet the horses.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Previous to Friday, I had no idea that there was even a horse stable at Chatfield.  My first thought when I found out about it is, "This is great.  I would love to take a trail ride here this Spring/Summer."  I still would like to.  I would love to plan a visit with my three teenagers and do a trail ride. I cannot wait.

 

Sorry for the long email.  I am soooooo looking forward to birding this Spring, which is around the corner.

 

Happy birding everyone!

 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 3:09 PM Marie Hoerner <mesozoic....@gmail.com> wrote:

It is not my intent to "pile on" or to make anyone feel badly for what has already happened.  I just want to share a couple of thoughts on a situation in which the rangers and other patrons have minimal concern for keeping the space open to a variety of recreational activities and how bad this can be for birders in hopes that future behaviour might change.

 

Pawnee National Grasslands has some awesome birding, including a beautiful auto loop that has an incredible colony of burrowing owls.  I drove all the way from Colorado Springs, along with my mother, to enjoy this loop one summer at the right time to see owlets.  We were also hoping to see longspurs and mountain plover.  We got up at 3 am to do so in order to be there by dawn.  Starting very early in the morning, the place became overrun as a shooting range.  There is a designated area for this activity, but it is allowable to shoot anywhere.  Not only did this affect the birding, but it was making us incredibly nervous for our own safety given that many seemed to have little regard for others based on their incredibly close proximity to the road.  Finally, we came across someone with what appeared to be a semi-automatic rifle (apologies, I know nothing about guns) standing on the shoulder of the road and shooting continuously across the road where we were trying to drive.  We approached slowly in hopes that they would stop, would turn away from the road, something... in order to allow us to pass, but without success.  That was the point at which we gave up, turned around, and left after making a very long drive and getting up several hours before dawn.  We have not been back since.  Later, when a number of birders from this forum contacted the rangers about the growing problem, we were informed that there was nothing they could do, and the rangers suggested that maybe the birding loop could be moved elsewhere.  There was no interest in asking those with guns to relocate to anywhere else in the expansive grasslands, despite the fact that large colonies of burrowing owls and excellent birding sites are much more difficult to move (e.g. impossible) than recreational shooting.  By comparison, Chatfield State Park restricts shooters to the shooting range.  They also have designated areas for model airplanes, hot air balloon launches, horseback riding, off-leash dogs, etc.

 

The moral of the story is: let's be grateful that Chatfield State Park makes it a priority to preserve access for a wide variety of activities, with designated spaces for certain activities so that everyone can use the park.  If the price is a little bit of patience to view a particular bird from allowed spaces, please let's all pay that price.

 

Marie Hoerner

Colorado Springs, El Paso County

 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 11:59 AM willc...@gmail.com <willc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

 

Consistently breaking rules and not informing others of the rules for viewing this sparrow could easily lose birders access, so lets all try to follow the rules that were so clearly posted here by Joey so others can continue to appreciate this bird! Having a good relationship with the other patrons of the park and the park police is very important, so please make sure to notify anyone you see doing something that isn't allowed that what they are doing could impact future birders. I hope we can all be considerate of the park police and not force them to patrol an area because birders are being negatively impactful.

 

Thanks for being great representatives of the birding community,

 

Will Anderson

CU Birding Club

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 12:52:37 PM UTC-7 cinnamon...@gmail.com wrote:

So yesterday, I went to the "horse stable" to see this Golden-crowned Sparrow.  I parked in the "stable parking space" which is just two spaces by the stable and got reprimanded by the Park police as soon as I stepped out of my car.  The park police guy was very crabby and told me to stay out of the stable area.  I was shocked by his demeanor, but I was very nice to him and moved my car immediately.  Then he drove off and left the property.

 

Luckily, the Golden-crowned Sparrow was in a bush by the large parking lot and I was able to view it with no problems.  As soon as I got some photos of the Golden-crowned Sparrow, the birds (all the sparrows) flew over to the stable area.  I did not go over to the stable area in fear that I would be yelled at, since I was just told to stay out of that area.  

 

A couple guys showed up a minute later, who did not know that they were forbidden to stay out of that area.  They went over and took a couple photos of the Golden-crowned by the stable, which took them about 5 minutes and then they left without incident.  I was glad the park police guy was gone.  I could have told the guys not to go over there, but it wasn't my job and they had made a long trip to see this bird, so I said nothing.  

 

There are no signs that say to stay out.  I was not going to be the police and tell them to stay out.  How would anyone know these rules?

 

Here is a picture of this lifer for me!  Not a great photo, but proof!  

 

Cinnamon Bergeron

 

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 9:33 PM W. Robert Shade III <wrsh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Several of us were approached by the State Park Police this morning and informed that they do not want non-horse people wandering around inside the stable/corral area. We are free to use the parking lot (where the Golden-crowned Sparrow has appeared) or to approach the rabbit brush area on the east from the road. (Park at Fox Run)

 

Bob Shade

Lakewood

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